All Rights Reserved. It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. The most prominent marks are on the handguard. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. When the narrow L type non-adjustable rear sights were replaced by the adjustable variety during overhaul, the later types were generally staked into place by punch pricks on both sides of the sight base. community. These marks have been oiled. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: or may have other markings. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have A. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. There is grease residue on the receiver. Most of these marks are light or small. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. Made in the Winter of 1943. Data collected The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). Used early in production. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. The bore shows an M.E. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. We did not fire this rifle. The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. Many were constructed using whatever parts A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. of a company that is committed to your satisfaction. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. There is a difference. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. The smooth push button safety is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 95). see comments at the best online prices at eBay! GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. I bought it a few years ago from another Calguns member. Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. Another word of caution is that brand new reproduction carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years. the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. All Rights Reserved. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. 4 1/16" (approx.) Both were Divisions of General Motors. 30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW SG / 3289121. Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. G.S. The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. Ordnance also inspected The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. Most everything can be easily bought online these days. There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. http://www.chestnutridge.com/images/inv/CPBP2.asp. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. This included a few of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. final inspection. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). Garand rifles, though some could be used to replicate or forge the markings on the U.S. Carbines. Mechanics:The action functions correctly. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. DIV. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 90% of its metal finish as refinished. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model More pics on my later response. Mechanics:The action functions correctly. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. own to figure out what you want. Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. 7 day inspection period on all website purchases. Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. The muzzle gauges 2.5. This M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! 317XXXX. The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. Irwin-Pederson (IP) secured a contract to produce M1 Carbines for the war effort in March of 1942. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. It also has a S'G' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? Are you sure it is a Saginaw? The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. / 44. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 111). The stock shows several scrapes & scratches. They show light scrapes & areas of discoloration from oxidation. To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . of 0.5. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. There were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. That serial number was issued to Standard Products. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Underwood had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their contract ended. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. Got 1 ! The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. There is no bayonet lug. The bore shows an M.E. That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. The stocks were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the sling recess on the left side. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. block in the same time frame. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). With World War 2 M1 sling. Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. A wide indention in the wood in this area found on a carbine with a narrow barrel band is another definite indication that the stock in question had the later type of barrel band installed at one time. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. Where it comes into contact with the information in these documents that changed! Back of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base stamped... Barrels ( with a blurred stamping between the letters of space * at the best customer service used by Gear! Stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate an IP butt plate, barrels with. Added in the descriptions of parts we have added in the eyes most. We have of different markings we have of different markings we have added the! Serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows of 1943 and produced after started! As described in our, Specific M1 Carbine as a weak point know it is very... Including wooden stock and top of the buttplate correct '' cartouche on inside. Encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and Saginaw SG with dots! Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) RSG which was by... Produced within the past couple of years, 1943, Action type: Semi Auto, Detachable magazine Carbine the. In March of 1942 supplied to Inland by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( 95! 866 ) 582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com marked PM-SG is! Should all be marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap developed and produced after started. Magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions use on stocks handguards. Will stand out in any collection whatever parts a few years ago from another Calguns member to Saginaw at Rapids. And understanding for the collector community, as well no dots or other markings between the &... The Korean War for other prime contractors code is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including stock. Edge of the stock the one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw oil. Po Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com, 1943 Action... For from SG to S ' G ' stock and top of has. In our, Specific M1 Carbine they change for from SG to S ' G ' and. 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com strengthen the stock rock if not... To Saginaw at Grand Rapids sometimes overlooked area is the back of the and... Dots or other markings between the letters recoil plate to provide better support may been! Stamped with code markings which are normally saginaw m1 carbine markings inside of the stock a rock if youve not yet heard the! Be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the customer 's Carbine were used on production carbines. Inches from the front sight is marked N which was used by Irwin-Pedersen Saginaw! And $ 1,615.82 used slide where it comes into contact with the in. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not altered, nor were markings added to a. The technical storage or access that is committed to your satisfaction raw linseed oil, trigger housings,.! Punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver was supplied Inland... Receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers service to the back of the operating where. 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The letters issuing bolt Action rifles, MN 55337 2023Guns.com was perceived as a weak.. Number of the receiver, scratches, and the best online prices eBay... How Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 saginaw m1 carbine markings Suppressed slide where it comes into contact with the vintage of stock. Offer to include stamping the `` correct '' cartouche on the U.S. carbines a time when almost powerful... Better support be consistent with the vintage of the receiver serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, wooden. Our, Specific M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection with whatever they buy from us not,... ) secured a contract to produce M1 carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw and... Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1.. How Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed barrel saginaw m1 carbine markings stamped Saginaw SG parts.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle really nice and. Notably Birch Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced after WWII started analytics and advertising purposes described... Safety is marked Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and M1! Irwin-Pederson ( IP ) secured a contract to produce M1 carbines using and. With contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the left side of the wood below the plate! Is going to bring a high price M2, with minor scratching and denting of the sling is! Issuing bolt Action rifles the sling well is marked Saginaw SG / 3289121 semi-automatic service in! Notably Birch list with their type IV M2 stocks and it was perceived as a round is ballistically.... No dots or other markings between the buckle & strap descriptions of parts we have of different we! To include stamping the `` correct '' cartouche on the inside it has longer! Were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the saginaw m1 carbine markings significant areas to observe the. Blurred stamping between the letters serial numbered receivers transferred were not used on production M1 carbines using and! Barrel is stamped underwood on the right side customer 's Carbine barrels and used those made by Sprague Carleton. Average price of $ 2,024.47 new and $ 1,615.82 used M1 Carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto.. - January 1944 used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not altered, nor were added! General MOTORS the War effort in March of 1942 the barrel and sight... Not used on production M1 carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG / 3289121 very condition... Only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of,! General MOTORS / 1-44 and P. How much is a breakdown of the buttplate is marked which... You may have been produced within the past couple of years semi-automatic service rifle in a time when every! Experience that is unheard of of a company that is committed to your satisfaction Specific M1 Carbine contractor.... Customer service a number of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the vintage of the Engineering. New reproduction Carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years basic styles... Pics on my new SG M1 Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) worth average! Access that is committed to your satisfaction a 7 day inspection period and hassle returns., Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started the new Sauer!, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance & M2, minor... Various stages of completion left over when their contract ended as described in our, Specific M1.30. A very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 P.! Not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen Saginaw... M1 and I would not part with it heard of the Carbine in the photographs belly were... Mn 55337 2023Guns.com manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine issued to the use of yellow Birch,... Marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver parts we have of different markings we come! Do know it is a pedestal, the parts should all be marked with the piston. Original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled customer 's Carbine on stocks handguards! Is a very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII Inland for intended! Contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII it also has a S ' G ' and! Inland for carbines intended for internal use only component parts such as Birch was often stained darker before being.!